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Indianapolis Museum of Art
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Channels: European Design
Q & A session from the European Design Symposium held at the Indianapolis Museum of Art. This session focuses on the various ways that design is industrially manufactured or handmade in Europe today.
Q & A featuring:
Rolf Fehlbaum (Chairman, Vitra, Switzerland)
Alberto Alessi (Managing Director, ALESSI SPA, Italy)
Beatrice de Lafontaine (Director, when objects work, Belgium)
Bernardine Walrecht (Co-Founder, Dutch Design Agency, The Netherlands)
We are going to end a very... a very packed and fantastic afternoon with some opportunities to talk to the speakers,
but, I would like to take the privilege of, really, asking the speakers, each one of them, to reflect on the theme of this afternoon, which is making.
And, there is always lots of discussion and debate about societies being deskilled, about manufacturing bases being eroded,
about the rise of skill bases in China but of little opportunities in our focus which is Europe
and I would like to ask each of the speakers, perhaps, to reflect on the key issues or a key concern that they could or would identify in the current period,
around these issues of making. Alberto, could I start with you, please?
Yes, with pleasure..... Well, first of all, being a gardener, I don't mind so much about this situation, because I know that I am always depending on nature.
So, I can do my job, but it is not the...... it will never be enough. And the second I have also to think about for example the history of this phenomenon of the Italian design factories
and of Italian design... Okay! Until all 70s, we could say the Italian design was characterized,
without exceptions, almost, by two facts. One, being designed by Italian designers, and the second, being manufactured in Italy.
Then, during the 80s, we had.... we had this big change, until at the end of the 80s, one could not anymore say that Italian design was coming mainly by Italian designers.
Only the first element was remaining the same, the fact of being manufactured in Italy. But then, the Italian design factories were becoming this kind of research lab,
opening the doors to a lot of foreign designers. So, Italian design was expressed also by foreign designers.
And now, we are probably assisting to another phase, where it may happen that Italian design will also lose the other side,
meaning to be not necessarily even manufactured in Italy. But what is important, in my opinion, is that these deep practice of gardener must remain the same.
Gardening, in the midst of being a research lab, able to attract the best Italians in design.
This is what... what I can understand....
Thank you...
Thank you! Would you like to make some comments on that thing?
I think you need an industrial base for design. It’s not impossible I think to have design being done somewhere and production complete somewhere else.
I think it's very healthy that in Europe you have still manufacturing or take the UK, a problem is that you have a little manufacturing there
and so the designers have to go to other countries and they cannot produce actually a design in... in the UK.
However, when my father had the company his ambitions and pride was to do everything himself
and it was.... this was the only way to do have the quality control and that would not be possible today
and we also in our factories there is more assembly than actual production and we are the latest player, the upholstery etc.,
but many things come from elsewhere and not just from Europe. So, to make... to find a way to keep your industrial competence so you are also a good partner for the designer
but also outsource whatever you can do elsewhere better is the right... is the right answer and may be with changing exchanges with India.... with... with China and with also some more ecological concern
we will produce more in Europe again and we.... we... we...we will set that stage, it can come back.
So, I think its also turning something that... that Penny and I were discussing earlier that there has been a distinct move in the UK to close education,
undergraduate programs which of the... the... the kind of core craft skills, ceramics, would be one and and four courses in ceramics and glass were closed this year in the UK
and it’s a concern. And that ceramic link takes me neatly..... to Bernardine....any sort of thoughts on the making and those issues
Well....
from your experiences in Holland
What you are saying about the education.... I think in Holland its also a very bad situation because the education also of.... of people who are very young and used to go to handicraft schools, I don’t know how you would call them
but that that they changed all the schools.... schools a couple of years ago into sort of yeah, how would you say that
Can you help me?....
a sort of not managerial but very theoretical. So, all the hand... hand craft is taken out of the system. I hear that they are putting it a bit back now and I hope so to because
I think it starts there as well and for that matter Tichelaar has... for his own concern, Jan Tichelaar’s concern
is to have the... to can't find the right word.... to his.... there are about 70 people working there
in the company and it's his concern to have them... to keep them alive, keep them working, so that’s what he wants to do.
So, he doesn’t want to have the things made in China for that basical reason only.
Beatrice, what about your experiences?
I think... notice.... there was a kind of globalization for example people from China are coming to study in Europe,
so they get an education also but on the other hands lets being honest if we want to make a product for a reasonable price because if you go to a shop the first thing they say its too expensive.
So, you need to take care about your costs..... our rately hours in Belgium are mainly too high to make a good product for reasonable price, good product okay but reasonable price no,
so I think we as a manufacturer for some handling are obliged to go out of Belgium to find it for the same quality for the cheaper price.
That’s what I think about the situation.
Okay..... well that’s... thank you for that interesting round up and... and I would now like to invite any questions from the... there is question from over here on the right.
Alberto would like to respond to that?
Yes, I agree in that design is always done by two different paths, one the design and the other the company.
Each of them have to be very conscious about the possibility, the technical possibilities of the material they are using, that’s fine but also I have to say that what we expect from designers
is they... that they will ask us every time to try to break the rules, even the technical rules.
This is the side of design.... from the side of designers, that ask from the side of the industry to be... to know very well our job and in that sense we can I agree with what was saying before we cannot lose our center as a production.
We cannot do everything ourselves. It would be completely out of the... of the time today but we need to keep our... our strong knowledge as a manufacturers
as strong as possible....
Beatrice...
Yeah....I think agree... I agree we are the center to put the information together and to make the last decision.
So, if the designers trying out we need to bring him on his place if he is wrong. On the other hands, if the designer comes with an impossible idea,
it is always a challenge to find out new production methods or.... or new materials. So, it’s a challenge on the other hand also.
Bernardine? Yes, I think I... I.... I agree with Mr. Alessi, that you... you stretch I think a factory or company
stretches his abilities and therefore its developing.... its development what’s happening when you so....
I would like to build on... Beatrice's argument that a designer can know too much or too little and both is dangerous.
If you take the 20th century there was this great development in furniture design because they.... the roles changed.
Before furniture was made by an artisan, the artisan knew everything and it was very difficult if you know everything to dare doing new things. So, you have a sort of self censorship
and in the 20th century, these rules sort of separated. You had, architect, as the concept-mind and you had the producer and the... the fact that so many interesting things happened in the 20th century
it was because of that separation, because the architects wanted things that were very hard or impossible to do and the producers had to respond to that and it was that dialectic I think that created the greatness
of the 20th century.
Okay......any..... lets.... lets move on, any other questions.
Rolf do you want to take that?
Well an easy answer and this one would be the Panton chair where is one of the rare cases... well.... where designer comes with a very defined idea and the technology is not available yet
and has to be but it's close you don’t have these ideas when the technology is far away. It’s close and in that case the manufactur is rather helping an idea that already exists.
More frequently is that it’s really an exchange where a designer has an idea, the manufacturer has an idea and it gets that... that who did what when gets lost in these trial and error process that design is
mostly designers not have an idea. Mostly, there is a problem and there are many many very frustrating steps to take, many errors,
many trials, until a product is where... where it should be. So, it’s very difficult to say what in sort of influences who influenced whom at certain stages....
you forget it afterwards because it’s so complex.
Alberto do you have a... a... a certain example of a designer who has impacted on the manufacturing technique or not?
Well I have.... I have worked with several hundreds of designers but I may say that no one of them knew my.... actually knew my technology but what is in because other way they should have been engineers
and I am not interested in having engineers designing my stuff. What is... what is good with designers is that they have a lot of curiosity about the way to produce and about the materials
but they.... they.... they are not deep in technology and we are not asking for that. They are like for me designer is a first of the poet and then a poet that in order to express himself needs to be produced
to use materials and to use technology but they are not engineers....
Beatrice...
I think its little bit to same when John came up with the idea of a dish in ceramic which we could use on both sides. So, his first design was a very thick dish
which was not able to make and born then there is a discussion between the company who makes it, between me, between John but its not possible
and then you try to find out how can we become the idea and then you try out just till you find the right thickness
to make the right dish you can use on both sides. So, I think it’s a discussion always.
Bernardine....yes I..... I think it’s a... a two different things if you stretched the companies' technical abilities which is more on the architectural side. They have specific questions.
I want this sort of glazer and then Tichelaar starts to work and find it out and that’s stretching the technical possibilities but I think the designers on the object side
stretch very much the significance of... of the design and therefore also the understanding of the company of and going over their borders with that
and therefore taking steps in understanding.
Okay... lets move on to question over here on the left.
Alberto, what is the impact and I guess China is the kind of the bottom line here?
We try to.... really..... we try to minimize with the a lot of success this kind of impacts and first of all.... all the.... all what we produce in called from the metal is still produced in Crusinallo on the lake side
but then all the other materials we develop, all the design process, we do the engineering and then we subcontract.
We subcontract almost everywhere depending from where we find the right quality for.... for any any specific products. So, we produce in France, in Germany,
in Austria, in Portugal, in Turkey, also in China, in Brazil, and what we try to do is that the driving.... the driving energy is always
the design and we try to to find out the proper producers in order to match with the design that we are making for.
So, I don’t.... for us, it is really not a problem.
Okay...... Rolf what about your experiences at...
Well... well I see more as general issue not of.... of suppliers, not necessarily Chinese or just suppliers and of course the more complex your product is the more you also depend on good suppliers
and on their know how and if we did say deal with leather, we are not the greatest specialists in leather, so we have to work the best specialist in leather
to make our products in leather and that is the normal process but that the danger is sometimes that you lose part of your own knowledge when you delegate it to others
for an instance take an office chair, the more and more they are specialist in mechanisms and they work them for everybody and in the end you... you you.... they are so strong
and they do it so well that you start to depend on that supplier. In the end everybody has the same type of chair because everybody uses same supplier because the mechanism is so important for an office chair.
There you have to beware and for instance we.... we are also very careful to keep the basic competence which make the object that we really keep that in house.
Beatrice... the third partner..... any issues or problems that you've come across?
It's quite simple. We are not able to do all the hand crafting ourselves. So, if you want to make something, you need to go and I don’t speak about China there are other countries besides going to China.
You need to go to a country or a place who is specialized in doing it. So, I think sometimes you are just obliged to do it because if you do it yourself you... you do it wrong.
Bernardine, you are trying to keep production located in Holland....
yeah... yeah.... yeah the production is located in Makkum basically and sometimes of course you have...
well all the material 99.9% of the material is the clay as you understand but sometimes this like the wood with the collection work
and now we are actually again working with Dick van Hoff making... that’s a secret don’t tell it... for Milano.
It’s going to be heat.... heaters..... wood heaters for in house and so of course there is a metal construction in there and then you have the third party
but it’s.... it’s going to be again in round corn.... sort of around the corner and the quality that’s... what’s it all about.
Okay.... is there a question?.....
I think one insight we.... who you had Alberto.... you had, I had, is that the creative person doesn’t work for us. The creative person is not working for Vitra or Alessi......they are working, the creative person is in his or her own project
and hopefully that project includes serving and it serves the customer or the individual, not us
and our art if it is one is to create overlap of the interest of the designer and our interest and create through sort of a mutual inspiration
to create a lot of overlap, so the project of the designer and our project have... have enough overlap to them become a new reality
and the... the important thing is always of the designer and the architect to serve but not to serve us as a company but to serve the user.
Bernardine, you have many titles or name to the role of that you work in Holland. Would you like to make some comments?
I.... I need to review the question again because I was just lost......
The questions I think from the speaker of it.... there have been many words to describe.
Curator, editor, gardner, mediator and at the heart of I think your question is potential difference... is this is a European phenomenon
or is it something that is just not quite so exquisite in America?
I don’t know the American situation so well I must admit but I feel that in Europe may be there are still little or less fear sort of fear.
I feel that in America the question this morning also about American design. I think that for my feeling it has to do a bit with a sort of fear of being against the grain
doing something out of the order and I feel may be that’s the same as well with... with the old manufactures that they are just doing what they want to do
and therefore that role is coming above being a mother or father or gardener, or whatever. It’s just put all the heart in there and then I don’t know what else can you do.
One last question.... okay there is a lady......
I think design is still an emotion. So, for example if I exhibit out of there the people who come to visit. The only thing they do is touching everything.
The don’t need to touch it but they touch anyway. So, I think the digital prototyping is very easy to develop on a very quick way something
but you still need always a real prototypes to feel the real emotion, real proportion. So, according to me it still stays very important.
Bernardine do you want to add something?
Well, may be it comes a surprise but Tichelaar they don’t do it in house but they use quite lot of prototypes, not prototypes but models made for the making the ceramics in
and by the computer, because I think that’s the question and on the other hand the designers, lot of the time put older intuitivity and emotion in there with making things by hand
but then to translate it to what usable model sometimes a computer comes in handy.... it's not something we don’t do.
Well..... what about your experiences?
We work... we work with both but to get some ideas quickly develop it to sort of a visibility of course the digital prototype is fine
but whenever we get so called digital prototypes we know that most of the difficult issues are just hidden in... in and we we get to the real problem only when we do the physical prototype.
Alberto.....
The prototyping is unavoidable today in the development even if may be I am a bit paranoid really regret to lose year after year the this very skillful modern makers able to
its true....
what could make that also in some areas of my products for example cutlery... it is impossible to give an evaluation only having in your hands... always in prototype....
you need to at a certain point to introduce the real material.
My most notable... I am working on very traditional world in terms of production. My most notable contribution in that area is may be, probably the fact that we are actually producing objects
that never end. So, the.... the... the word to recycle does... doesn’t exist in my field.
Okay.......Rolf... what about Vito.....?
As an industry we have been working in the what is normal in Europe now since since many years that you... you.... you work with a with a green agenda when you develop your products you have rules
like easy separation of materials, no mix that you can later is difficult to... to separate when... when you recycle, etc., etc....
In Europe that is almost normal. It’s not the big deal to do that. To go beyond may be is a big deal... we use in our factories solar energy
and we need... we used the earth water to warm buildings, etc., etc..... many many people do that.
The most important is I think....what.... what Alberto said to do things that last and that last long long time ago if possibly from generation to generation
things that are repairable and reusable and that is what.... what.... what we believe in and as you do.
Okay, well I would like to bring the session to a close. It’s been a fantastic afternoon shared with our four speakers. I would like to thank them all and thank you for listening. Good afternoon!
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